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  1. #21
    Premium Member apodesta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash rendar View Post
    Hi Stu

    To answer this question, you need to get to grips with two things:
    1) The notes (degrees) that make up a scale in a given key
    2) The triads (chords) that are assembled from each degree of the scale.
    Thanks for posting this. I have a book that I'm going through that explained the chord patterns in a major key, and I was thinking of starting a thread to ask if someone could help me with minor keys. There is no need for that any more. Great stuff. I will cut and paste this and keep referring to it.

    Anthony.
    "It's not easy being an idiot ... but I try. " ~ ~ Miche Fambro.

  2. #22
    Free Member (Wimp!) snagproof's Avatar
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    I made a Major Scale Key chart that I thought people might find useful. Please let me know if there are mistakes in it or if I could improve it in some way.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by snagproof; 06-11-2011 at 09:53 AM.

  3. #23
    Premium Member dash rendar's Avatar
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    It's a good start dude.

    A couple of things... You're missing 5 of the 12 keys. Don't forget Bb, C#, Eb, F#, Ab.

    Also, by enharmonic conventions, it's usual to write the key of F as "F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E". I.e. write Bb, rather than A#. Of course, they are enharmonically equivalent, so what you've written is not technically wrong. But key signatures are typically 'abbreviated' by the numbers of sharps or flats in the key. So, we know that the key of G has one sharp, so that gives you an 'identity' for the key of G. But by writing the key of F with A#, you've now compromised that identity by writing another key with a single sharp.

    Hope that helps.
    --- Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.

    Guitars: Ibanez Prestige JS1200, Fender Strat (70s Reissue), Farida D62N Acoustic, Ibanez SR400.
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  4. #24
    Free Member (Wimp!) snagproof's Avatar
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    Hi Dash,

    Thanks for the pointers. I made the changes and updated the file.

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    I've no clue.

  6. #26
    Premium Member dash rendar's Avatar
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    Good job Snagproof!

    Another minor pointer (no pun intended!)...

    In addition to the rule I mentioned above, about a key signature having a unique number of either sharps or flats, you should also not repeat a given 'letter' more than once, when writing out the notes that make up a key. This is required to ensure the unique number of sharps and flats over all 12 keys.

    In your key of C#, you've written:

    C#, D#, F, F#, G#, A#, B#

    Of course, there's technically no such note as B#, since B# is actually C. But, in fact, to write B# is CORRECT in this case, because if you wrote C instead, then you would have C followed by C#. This would result in a repeat of two letters the same, and it would also reduce the number of sharps in the key signature by one.

    Of course, this means that you have a problem where you've written F, F#. In order to meet the above rules, you should instead write it as E#, F#. Again, E# doesn't really exist, but is the correct way to write it in this case. So, you ultimately should end up with:

    C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#

    I.e. the key signature of C# has 7 sharps. (Your version has 6.)

    You're missing the key of F#, by the way. When you've worked it out - adhering to the above rules - you should find it has 6 sharps. This will complete the picture, and you should then find you have all the keys, ranging from 4 flats up to 7 sharps, and no 'gaps' in the pattern. (You might find it useful to put the count of sharps or flats on your chart?)
    --- Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.

    Guitars: Ibanez Prestige JS1200, Fender Strat (70s Reissue), Farida D62N Acoustic, Ibanez SR400.
    Amps: Roland Microcube RX, Fender Champion 30.
    Recording: PreSonus Firebox.

  7. #27
    Free Member (Wimp!) snagproof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash rendar View Post
    Good job Snagproof!

    This will complete the picture, and you should then find you have all the keys, ranging from 4 flats up to 7 sharps, and no 'gaps' in the pattern. (You might find it useful to put the count of sharps or flats on your chart?)

    Ok I uploaded another version with the F# key and the C# key correction, but I'm not sure about the quote above. When I count the sharps and flats I get some that are below what you have stated. ie; the Key of Bb has only 2 flats and not 4. I'm not sure what you mean by "no gaps".

  8. #28
    Premium Member orion3t's Avatar
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    Before I knew much about theory, I thought that the beginning chord to a song was the key it was in, no matter what.
    I was always taught that it was usual for a song to END on the note in which key it was written. In my experience that was true - not entirely the rule but it tends to be the case that songs don't sound 'complete' otherwise. Of course sometimes that's the writer's desired effect, but it's not the classical approach.

    Now bearing in mind I learned my theory while learning classical violin, this may not transfer directly to guitar chords, but if anything I would expect songs to end on the chord the key was played in, moreso than to start in it. But maybe since songs often have 'leading' notes it applies to the start just as much when referring to chords (e.g. if there's a leading semiquaver before the first full bar, that chord probably wouldn't be played and the first note of the first full bar would probably be the one to look at).

    So what theory knowledge I have would lead me to suggest that if a song ends on a certain chord, that's usually the key it's played in. If it starts and ends on that chord, then it's as sure as you can be without more detailed analysis.

    The point being of course, that which notes are used alone can only narrow the keys down to 2 - the major and relative minor. By looking at the first and last notes/chords you can usually determine which. If the notes played are ABCDEFG, it could be in C or in A minor. If the last note is A, it's probably Am, if it's a C it's probably C major. The first note/chord being the same would pretty much confirm it.

  9. #29
    Premium Member dash rendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagproof View Post
    Ok I uploaded another version with the F# key and the C# key correction, but I'm not sure about the quote above. When I count the sharps and flats I get some that are below what you have stated. ie; the Key of Bb has only 2 flats and not 4. I'm not sure what you mean by "no gaps".
    No, you have it right.

    Ab has 4 flats.
    Eb has 3 flats.
    Bb has 2 flats.
    F has 1 flat.
    C has no flats or sharps.
    G has 1 sharp.
    And so on...

    So, "no gaps" meaning the pattern goes 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

    The chart looks spot on now.
    --- Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.

    Guitars: Ibanez Prestige JS1200, Fender Strat (70s Reissue), Farida D62N Acoustic, Ibanez SR400.
    Amps: Roland Microcube RX, Fender Champion 30.
    Recording: PreSonus Firebox.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by blewcrowe View Post
    ZOOM.
    Man, this stuff goes over my head. I'd like to know how far back to go, or where to go to get in a position to understand what is being discussed here.
    While I understand it when I read it here like this, I find that trying to fill out homework sheets from non-jamplay instruction is like pulling teeth. More erasing, rewriting, re-erasing, cheating by looking it up on a theory app on my iphone, etc.

    Someday, I hope, it will sink in.

 

 

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