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  1. #21
    Premium Member dash rendar's Avatar
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    A comment and a question from me...

    First, the comment: I believe the parallel method is the same as what Joe Satriani calls 'pitch axis theory'. If you look up this theory, or do some YouTube searches for Satch and modes, you'll find some really nice examples of him shifting the mode around the same root note. He does that so well...

    Now, the question: Kors, using the derivate method, you suggest that if you were playing, say a I, IV, V chord progression, you could solo over it using the Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian modes, respectively. (I don't think this was the exact example you used, but hopefully I've got the principle right.) Anyway, you say that you would then pick the right notes from those modes to solo over the chords, for consonance, I guess. But, here's the thing... all the derivate modes in fact contain exactly the same notes. So, if you're picking the notes to play over the chord, then presumably it doesn't matter which mode you choose, since the notes will always be right?

    Here's where I struggle, because I often find it hard to make a mode sound right, unless I'm playing Ionian or Aeolian (or pentatonics). I've noticed these two always seem to work well with the kind of rock I like listening to. But if I try and solo with another mode, ensuring I come back to the root note of the mode to try and get the right 'flavour' (sorry about the British spelling), then it never seems to sound quite right. I know that's a short-coming in my knowledge/ability, but I'm struggling to understand where I'm going wrong.

  2. #22
    Premium Member Anton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash rendar View Post
    Now, the question: Kors, using the derivate method, you suggest that if you were playing, say a I, IV, V chord progression, you could solo over it using the Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian modes, respectively. (I don't think this was the exact example you used, but hopefully I've got the principle right.) Anyway, you say that you would then pick the right notes from those modes to solo over the chords, for consonance, I guess. But, here's the thing... all the derivate modes in fact contain exactly the same notes. So, if you're picking the notes to play over the chord, then presumably it doesn't matter which mode you choose, since the notes will always be right?
    I don't know if i understood you right, but from what i understand, you are not accurate. Unless i totally misunderstood you.

    Modes of the scale do not contain the same notes. I'm not familiar with word "derivate", so maybe i lost the meaning 'cause of it.

    Lets take a E major/ionian:
    E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E

    E Dorian......: E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D, E
    E Phyrgian...: E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E
    E Lydian......: E, F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E
    E Mixolydian.: E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E
    E Aeolian.....: E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E
    E Locrian.....: E, F, G, A, A#, C, D, E

    As you see notes are different.


    Unless you mean in a chord progression (In Key of E), lets say E - F# - C# - E, you would play :

    E chord - solo using E Ionian.
    F# chord - solo using F# Dorian.
    C# chord - solo using C# Mixolydian. (CORRECTED: C# mode from E scale is not C# Mixolydian, but C# Aeolian)
    E chord - and back to E Ionian.

    I guess that would make sense. Haven't tried it though. But what if C# chord would be C#m chord? Mixolydian mode is major-ish sounding, i don't know if it would work at all over a minor chord. (BULLCRAP: Since Aolian is minor, it would work good.)

    Anyway, im gonna stop confusing people
    Last edited by Anton; 01-27-2009 at 05:02 PM.

  3. #23
    Premium Member dash rendar's Avatar
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    Thanks for taking the time to reply Anton, but you did misunderstand my post. I wasn't talking about modes using the same root note (e.g. E Dorian, E Phrygian, etc, as per the example in your post). I was talking about the 'derivative' method described by Kors earlier, whereby each mode can be thought of as a derivate of the root scale, but shifting the the starting note of the scale by one note for each derivation.

    E.g. G Ionian, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, etc. With this approach, all the modes do have the same notes. This matches your second example where you've said "unless you mean in a chord progression..." And this is how Kors was describing you would pick the mode based on the degree of the chord in the progression.

  4. #24
    Premium Member Anton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash rendar View Post
    E.g. G Ionian, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, etc. With this approach, all the modes do have the same notes. This matches your second example where you've said "unless you mean in a chord progression..." And this is how Kors was describing you would pick the mode based on the degree of the chord in the progression.
    I still don't know 'derivative' means, but then again my English is not that good...

    ALSO I MADE A MISTAKE. C# mode from E scale, is Aeolian mode not Mixolydian. And Aeolian is a minor-ish sounding mode so it would work over C#m chord.

    C#m is a relative minor of key of E..... Duuuuh.... I'm so stupid sometimes....

  5. #25
    Premium Member dash rendar's Avatar
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    Okay, I have a slight variant on my last question, which comes back to the original thread title...

    You could use the derivate approach to modes, and then switch mode for each chord in the progression. E.g. for a chord progression C, F, G, you could solo with Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian.

    But let's say that you instead want to stick to a single mode throughout the song, so you get a more 'modal' feel to the solo. You could, in theory, solo for the whole song in C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, and so on. But which one would you pick? If the song tends to centre around the C major chord, would you pick C Ionian, or maybe A Aeolian? If you were to solo with, say, D Dorian instead for a chord progression centering around C major, would it sound okay? (For me, it usually doesn't, but that's probably my lack of skill at soloing... refer to my earlier question!)

    Alternatively, if we were to use the 'parallel' approach, which mode would you pick? Again, C Ionian is a given for this chord progression, but couldn't you also pick, say C Lydian? Or would you avoid the Lydian because the F# would always sound dissonant with the F major chord?

    These questions have been troubling me for ages. I know you guys will come to the rescue!

  6. #26
    Moderator mkorsmo's Avatar
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    Hey Dash, sorry I didn't respond, I haven't been watching this thread. Anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by dash rendar View Post
    A comment and a question from me...

    First, the comment: I believe the parallel method is the same as what Joe Satriani calls 'pitch axis theory'. If you look up this theory, or do some YouTube searches for Satch and modes, you'll find some really nice examples of him shifting the mode around the same root note. He does that so well...
    I'll definitely take a look for this... Joe is a great teacher. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by dash rendar View Post
    Now, the question: Kors, using the derivate method, you suggest that if you were playing, say a I, IV, V chord progression, you could solo over it using the Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian modes, respectively. (I don't think this was the exact example you used, but hopefully I've got the principle right.) Anyway, you say that you would then pick the right notes from those modes to solo over the chords, for consonance, I guess. But, here's the thing... all the derivate modes in fact contain exactly the same notes. So, if you're picking the notes to play over the chord, then presumably it doesn't matter which mode you choose, since the notes will always be right?

    Here's where I struggle, because I often find it hard to make a mode sound right, unless I'm playing Ionian or Aeolian (or pentatonics). I've noticed these two always seem to work well with the kind of rock I like listening to. But if I try and solo with another mode, ensuring I come back to the root note of the mode to try and get the right 'flavour' (sorry about the British spelling), then it never seems to sound quite right. I know that's a short-coming in my knowledge/ability, but I'm struggling to understand where I'm going wrong.
    Some of this theory has been bugging me as well, writing that post, as well as, all the theory banter in chat got me thinking about it again... Anyhow, I've had some theory/soling related conversations with a couple buddies of mine, they've helped me sort though some of this stuff - and helped me organize some things better in my head. I edited my previous post with regards to application (the "how to build" parts still stand as correct).

    There are really two ways to approach scales, chord progressions and soloing.

    Method A - Single scale over the entire progression.

    Horizontal Method

    GENERALLY, this is done by taking the tonic of the key you are in and choosing the scale/mode that goes with it... OR, you choose the scale or mode that the chord progression RESOLVES to. So in your C major I - IV - V - I progression... you'd land on C major... thus, you could solo over it using the C Ionian/Major scale.

    However, if you wanted to mix things up a bit... you may chose the C Dorian mode - which will give you a different vibe... or Lydian... or whatever.

    Method B - Different scale for each chord in the progression.

    I've come to know this as the vertical method (rather than parallel)... essentially, you play a different scale/mode over each chord.

    I do know that each mode can be used to outline a type of chord... for instance the notes found in the dorian mode can outline a minor, minor 7th and a minor 9th - that is, the notes that make up those chord types are found IN the dorian mode. That makes the dorian mode COMPATIBLE with minor, minor 7th and minor 9th chords.

    ex. Take Cmin7... C Dorian would be compatible with Cmin7... it contains all the notes that are in the Cmin7 chord... BUT... so do the Phrygian and Aeolian modes... so C Dorian AND C Phrygian AND C Aeolian would all be acceptable choices for scales to play over a Cmin7...

    So in a progression like Cmaj7, Dm7, Fmaj7, G7...

    You could play..
    C Ionian over the CM7
    D Dorian over Dm7 (you could also play D Phrygian and D Aeolian)
    F Lydian over Fmaj7 (you could also play F Ionian)
    G Mixolydian over G7

    What works over what (from the Guitar Grimoire)

    Scale/Mode - Chord Chart
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Code:
    I.   Ionian     | Maj | Maj7 | Maj9
    II.  Dorian     | min | min7 | min9
    III. Phrygian   | min | min7
    IV.  Lydian     | Maj | Maj7 | Maj9
    V.   Mixolydian | Maj | 7    | 9      | 11      | 13
    VI.  Aeolian    | min | min7 | min9
    VII. Locrian    | dim
    Last edited by mkorsmo; 01-30-2009 at 09:40 PM.
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  7. #27
    Premium Member dash rendar's Avatar
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    Awesome response. Thanks Korsmo.

    Would you recommend purchasing the Guitar Grimoire? I've noticed there are quite a few books in the series.

    And, that chord chart you quoted; it looks very useful. Did that come from a reference I could link to, or is it something you typed out yourself?

    Thanks
    Daz

  8. #28
    Moderator mkorsmo's Avatar
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    Thanks Daz.

    The chart is from the GG. It's a very cool reference book. It's not long on instructional content, just a few pages. Mostly it's page after page of patterns, scale/chord charts... However, I found that once I started to get a grip on some of these concepts... sitting with it and a guitar is enlightening. (This goes for both the Scales and Modes / Chords and Vocings book). I also own the exercise book, which I'll be honest looks great, but I haven't spent enough time with.

    Note regarding the chart... it only covers up to 9ths (well, 13th for Mix) chord extensions... that chart can actually be extended as far out as you feel is practical.

    This is an ongoing learning process for me as well - so if anoyone else feels that something can be explained better than I have... please, by all means, do.



    Korz
    Last edited by mkorsmo; 01-31-2009 at 10:05 AM.
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  9. #29
    Free Member (Wimp!) sbryant's Avatar
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    Hey Kors,
    Once again I applaud you for your contributions to JamPlay. I feel you are the right person to ask this question: What is your opinion on the CAGED system? Do you use it? Is it just another approach to consider with many others? I am interested in your thoughts.

    Thanks, Steve.

  10. #30
    Premium Member dash rendar's Avatar
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    If you don't mind me also volunteering a reply, I personally really like the CAGED system. I find it a very useful tool for facilitating the transition from a major/minor barre chord shape straight into a scale (or mode) at that position.

    Learning the CAGED system (or EDCAG, as I learned it, which is just a different starting position) was my first foray into guitar theory, and I think it was extremely useful.

 

 

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