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  1. #1
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    Default Some direction for theory please

    This is not a whinge, Jamplay is amazing and so full of great tutorials, but because of this it can be a bit overwhelming of which direction to go in.
    I am working my way through some of the video tutorials but get lost as far as applying theory is when it comes to Jamplay. A lot of my learning is outside of Jamplay because it seems to lack direction sometimes.

    As an example, I am currently learning the Major scale in all positions, I am also trying to memorise the arpeggio's for those shapes at the same time. After I have some fluency with this I intend to work on the relative minor shapes which is just relearning the root positions and chord tones I guess? Then the pentatonic etc. I guess after this I should start looking at Domionant 7 arpeggios and modes (this is down the way a bit) I tend to want to have major scale fluent before moving on which is perhaps the wrong way.

    I don't see anywhere on Jamplay that really gives me the theory, what to learn and how to learn it and how to apply it. Sure there are good chord charts and scale charts (why dont Jamplay give the CAGED system option on the chord charts by the way?)

    I can carry on becoming very proficient at scales and never really be able to use them. So really I am just asking where this info is on Jamplay, Im sure it is I just need to find it I guess?

    Thanks for reading

  2. #2
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    Theory is like English grammar, it's a summary of known patterns and ideas. You don't need it if you can play the music (which is akin to language speaking) you hear in your head. Theory is useful in situations when you don't quite know what would sound good, like in jazz when there are lots of key changes, so it's useful to turn to theory as a guide. Also theory is useful for communicating with other musicians because it provides a standardization of terminology.

    So don't feel frustrated or get bogged down by theory. All you have to do is stop taking in new information and make music with what you already know. This allow to you expand your knowledge on a depth level. This is very very important. Memorizing new shapes, chords, scales without making music with them is like trying to learn a new language by only reading the dictionary. This will lead to two problems, 1) you won't know how to use those info, and 2) you will forget those info because you don't use them

    One way would be to apply your knowledge to songs. See what chords a song uses, maybe play those chords using different shapes/voicings. Then maybe see what key those chords belong to. Understanding how chords and scales are related etc. Then you can try to improvise new melodies over those chords using the corresponding scales, utilizing your shapes and arpeggios. You could even write your own songs with your knowledge.

    Take at a look at jamplay's improvisation courses. Those contain good information on this stuff. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by janopack; 12-12-2015 at 11:26 AM.

  3. #3
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    yes it does help and some very good points about maing music with what you already know, but I do have an urge to keep expanding the knowledge.
    I suppose I want to own the fretboard
    I will take a look at the impro courses.
    Cheers

  4. #4
    Premium Member rarebird0's Avatar
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    There are separate theories for guitar and music in general. The guitar fretboard is uniquely different from, say, the piano, which lays every note out in a linear set of full steps (white keys) and half steps (the black). Having spent a year here, a year with each of JamPlays biggest competitors, and being a teacher and computer based training program designer for 25 years, I completely identify with your sense of not being able to find a straight line that will lead you to both understanding and competence with guitar. I will post a link below of one of the best series of lessons that I have found here on JP which relates to guitar fret board theory. But in and of itself it won't translate into when to actually apply this knowledge in music (probably because there are different genres that center on progressions other than the I-IV-V of blues.

    After years of playing but only by sort of faking it--I was fine on acoustic playing the CAGED forms toward the end of the neck and looking up chords called for from song sheets, the only methodology that gave me the big "aha" moment as to what I should have started learning was a course called "Fingerboard Breakthrough" by Howard Morgen. There are sample from it on Youtube and it is available as a standalone course you can purchase. What most sites like this have in common is that they put money into garnering the services of great players. Most however just simply aren't anywhere near as great teachers as they are great players. It's not unusual to hear them speak too fast or mutter or call out the wrong thing and then correct themselves rather than hearing and seeing a lesson that has been expertly planned and "re-taken" to remove every flub and sore spot so that it is as polished and up to high standards as possible. I don't know why that is, but I also don't know what there are re-designs of interfaces with new buttons that no one has quality controlled and which lie around unfixed. I see good improvement in Jam Play since I have come back from 10 month hiatus but like Guitar Tricks and True Fire, all these services are works in progress--none being flawless. Here is the link. I suggest taking this course and taking it over again. And coming back to it. I have taken screen shots and made flash cards of the supplementary content and have taped them to a wall for reference.

    http://members.jamplay.com/guitar/ph...ding-intervals

  5. #5
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    Thanks Rarebird0
    I found Morgan Howard on Youtube and certainly looks interesting, though I see it is on Truefire which I avoided as I read it was more jazz oriented. However it may be worth a closer look.
    However, I shall start with your linked course here on JP which also looks of interest.
    Tahnk for going to the trouble

  6. #6
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    So I started with the Intervals lesson and whilst i already knew what was said (I have been messing with guitar badly on and off for years) for the first time it masde me look at intervals in a different way.
    The way it was broken down string by string really helped and messing about with augmented 4th on the 6th string made me instantly see where Tony Iommi got the Black Sabbath riff of the same name from.
    I see he called the flat 5 the diminished 5th and not the b5 which is how I have always called it. Nothing in a name tho I guess

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by janopack View Post
    All you have to do is stop taking in new information and make music with what you already know. This allow to you expand your knowledge on a depth level. This is very very important. Memorizing new shapes, chords, scales without making music with them is like trying to learn a new language by only reading the dictionary. This will lead to two problems, 1) you won't know how to use those info, and 2) you will forget those info because you don't use them
    Janopack nailed it with this post. He's exactly right. At some point, you have to start making music with the skills you have, otherwise learning new skills can just become a way of putting off getting creative and actually making some music.

  8. #8
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    Yes, I do recognise myself in this and intend to try and make some music. Something I failed with last time I tried guitar. Cheers

  9. #9
    Premium Member rarebird0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheRopes View Post
    Thanks Rarebird0
    I found Morgan Howard on Youtube and certainly looks interesting, though I see it is on Truefire which I avoided as I read it was more jazz oriented. However it may be worth a closer look.
    However, I shall start with your linked course here on JP which also looks of interest.
    Tahnk for going to the trouble
    Hi, actually it's not jazz oriented. Instead what it is is a methodology that leads one to do every next move because of a reason that makes total sense given the layout of strings and frets on a guitar. Whereas CAGED is a great system for applying chord "forms", it doesn't necessarily cause one to have to name each note and interval from each other inside the chord or have a logic other than what notes withing the form to change to make it minor or 7th etc. Morgen's approach first introduces a formula for finding evry location on the fretboard of a note by its octaves. And there is a simple form that holds true for all notes where five shapes are applied to find the note anywhere on the neck. Whereas so many people are either told or just come to believe that learning guitar means memorizing scales and chords, that is not quite so. That is true for learning music in general with the piano as your instrument because it's not a "staggered" system of stings where note values are not as plainly linear as the keyboard where everything is in a straight line. It is therefore critical to master the fretboard and its quirks before blindly just following instructions on chord forms and scales. All scales can be played in a number of ways on a guitar versus the piano.

    So the next logical thing to do after applying the octave-finding 5 "tonality shapes" is to start with the simplest of chord which is the major triad. All chords are then extensions or alterations of the major triad. So the memorization factor changes to quickly knowing the major 3rd and 5th of A though G. I keep a sheet sheet because I'm an old cuss whose ambitions are behind him, but it's best to reason these out yourself. Once you can do that Morgen then takes you through each next logical step for what is possible with the human hand in terms of adding a note or upping or dropping the thirds or fifths of these baseline triads. To me this is THE way to learn haing the "why" of everything answered. Instead of, say, taking a class on intervals, taking a class on barre chords, etc--the flawed "academic" reasoning that came in the 19th century with the "factory model" of education which assumes things about human capacity and motivation long exposed to be false that you will assemble all these separate arts and science later, Morgen's model is an example of what is known as "mastery learning" where you stay on one subject and progress toward the end only when you've shown you totally get it. And there is an end to his course--that being the understanding of the fret-board and familiarity with how and where to do everything. After that it makes sense to do the same with scales as applied to the fret-board where you learn something like the pentatonic scale not as just one thing but a scale which has five positions. It will be so much easier to already have the experience of encountering the half step difference of the B string in all things (it won't the obstacle it is to so many folks who are starting further "downstream" than they should have.

  10. #10
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    I have book 'Guitar fretboard Workbook -A complete system for understanding the fretboard' by Barrett Tagliarino. This begins with the five root shapes and moves on to scale patterns and then Major and perfect intervals, triad arpeggios then chords and finaly modes. Im not sure how many parallels it has with Morgens course but as I have followed it somewhat then I can relate to some of what you are saying. In fact youhave convinced me to take a closer look at his course, beginning with some of the free youtube videos. It may well be that it compliments the book which has no accompanying cd so is a little dry at times.
    Thanks again for your time

 

 

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